NUMBER OF LINES: 994 001=Usr:0 Null User 06/30/87 20:34 Msg:0 Call:0 Lines:19 1$If you are in need of help, you need but ask... 2$************************* INSTALLED: 6 OCT 87 ************************************** 3$Welcome to BWMS II (BackWater Message System II) Mike Day System operator 4$************************************************************************** 5$GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS II IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION 6$ PLACED ON THIS SYSTEM. 7$BWMS II was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS II is a privately 8$owned and operated system which is currently open for use by the general 9$public. No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. As the 10$system is privately owned, I retain the right to remove any and all 11$messages which I may find offensive. Because of the limited size of the 12$system, it will be periodically purged of messages (only 999 lines of data 13$can be saved). To leave a message, type 'ENTER'. Use ctrl/C to get out 14$the ENTER mode. The message is automatically stored. If after entering 15$the message you find you made a mistake, use the replace command to 16$replace the line. To exit from the system, type 'BYE' then hang up. 17$Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 18$************************************************************************** 19$ 002=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 10/06/87 20:31 Msg:647 Call:4248 Lines:3 20 Scintillate, scintillate, asteroid minific. 21 ***************************************************** 22 003=Usr:29 10/06/87 23:31 Msg:648 Call:4251 Lines:37 23 Why had he ever tried to rob that jewelry store thought the thief. He 24 should have known that the techies would have some damned machine guarding it. 25 Not a simple spell he could circumvent... oh no.. 26 Well it was all irrelevant now. He'd tried. And now he was trying to 27 outrun a couple of patrollers.... 28 " .. I've got on the sensors again Larry.." 29 " where?" 30 "quadrant 9" said George as he swooped towards the thief. 31 The thief looked started running again just before the patroller came in 32 sight at the end of the alley. Glancing back over his shoulder he saw him. 33 Only one chance now, maybe he could make those cursed flightpaks work 34 for him. He quit trying to keep to cover and made an all out dash for the next 35 section. 36 "I've got him on sensor now, George. I'll be there in a sec.." 37 "I SEE HIM! He won't get away now!" 38 George went to full throttle on an intercept course. 39 "George! NO!!! He's heading for the sector boundary..." 40 "So what I'm not letting him get away just because he's left our 41 sector.." his vioce trailed off as he realized what his partner meant. The next 42 sector was high-magic/low-tech. He tried to pull up. 43 He was 20 feet up and moving at 50 mph when he crossed the boundary. 44 All his instrument went dead and began to follow a ballistic trajectory. 45 His partner landed at the boundary and ran for the nearest "call box" 46 to get help. He placed his palm on the pillar. 47 An image formed above it. 48 "What are you doing in our sector, techy?" 49 "My partner was chasing a thief and flew over the boundary! Get me a 50 medic. He's in pretty bad shape!" 51 The wizard on duty turned to another crystal ball. "We've got a techy 52 patroller down in our area at pillar 17. Send a cleric and a squad of the 53 watch." 54 "They'll be there in a few minutes, do what you can for him in the 55 meantime." 56 Larry left the pillar and started giving George first aid. Two minutes 57 later a flying carpet approached with the cleric.... 58 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~BARD~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 59 (just had to point out that this new world has some "unique" problems) 004=Usr:174 10/07/87 10:19 Msg:649 Call:4259 Lines:33 60 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^@Home^^^^^^^ 61 Well, all ye people, today I'm going to entertain you all with a few words of 62 wisdom that has absolutely nothing to do with anything I've posted in the past 63 few days. I can hear the sigh of relief resounding through the valley, 64 echoing off the mountains...very funny, kids!!I know I'm not that bad. Most of 65 the time....OK, OK, so I'm a f###ing preacher, give me a break!! 66 Heard an interesting idea about the presidency...How about Carl Sagan, Frank 67 Zappa, and Ralph Nader all holding the office simultaneously, like a three 68 person commision. Carl Sagan, as annoying as he is, is a brilliant man, and he 69 doesn't like the "defense plan" Mr. Reagan has given us. Frank Zappa is just 70 about as open minded as they come, and is also extremely intelligent. Ralph 71 Nader is, and has been, and most likely be, the consumers advocate wherever 72 one is needed. ***Interesting theory,wouldn't you say?? 73 Nuff of that!! Anyone get a look at that full moon? We Werewolves have 74 a real interst in the phase of the moon...think about it.... 75 %%%%%%%%%%%%%and now, a break into the classics%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% 76 Weep, daughter of a royal line, 77 A Sire's disgrace, a realm's decay; 78 Ah! happy if each tear of thine 79 Could wash a fathers fault away! 80 81 Weep--for thy tears are virtue's tears- 82 Auspicious to these suffering isles; 83 And be each drop in future years 84 Repaid thee by thy people's smiles! 85 86 Lord Byron March, 1812 87 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%don't we feel better now?%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% 88 OOP! AAAAACCCKKK!!! i've been attacked by millions of tiny wariors, striving to 89 destroy me from the inside out...yes, I've caught the creeping crud that's been 90 ravishing the populace of our fair city. So, with this last farewell, I leave 91 you to drown my apponent in orange juice and oatmeal. Fare thee Well. 92 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 005=Usr:164 10/07/87 14:46 Msg:650 Call:4260 Lines:5 93@ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WERE THREE LITTLE DUCKS 94 ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WERE THREE LITTLE BIRDS, 95 THEY FLEW OVER THE OCEAN AND LIVED OFF OF THE WATER, 96 ONE DAY THEY SAW A BIG SHIP, AND IT WAS SINKING, 97 THE OIL FLOWED, AND THEY DIED. 006=Usr:174 10/07/87 17:58 Msg:651 Call:4264 Lines:13 98 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^now i live here, too^^ 99 Justin--Mudgaurd---I like it... 100 Leonard--You needn't worry about your silicon chips...If there is no alternativ 101 there is no alternative. In that case, tight inventory, and recycling would do 102 the trick. 103 The Person From St Helens(sorry, I can't remember!)--my apologies. The stuff 104 gets really nasty, doesn't it?? 105 Fable Master--Yes, I'm sure I could find out your identity--the question is--do 106 I want to? Maybe anonymity is a good thing...I could get in a lot of trouble, 107 I'm sure. You do seem to have a good grasp on my situation. And yes, the 108 Blackwing does perk right up. You can tell I mind terribly(choke, choke). 109 Soomething about gag reflexes... 110 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^YHE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 007=Usr:174 10/07/87 18:29 Msg:652 Call:4265 Lines:36 111 (omigawd, I can't even spell my own name. Scary, scary...muse) 112 ****************************Justin the Blue************************************ 113 114 ......from across space the great antenna recieves a broadcast...it's scratchy 115 and weak....Yes they have the Cosby show out there, too.... 116 117 ......When in Frisco, they come for you...the performance artists. Resisting 118 unseen walls, walking against unfelt winds...the annoy you. They make you want 119 to blow them away, to Rambo them into nonexistance. Please restrain yourself. 120 Please practice self-control. Remember, A MIME IS A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE. 121 122 The Latest Sojourn 123 I come expecting nothing 124 And may not be disappointed 125 Another new one emerges 126 To entertain me with its new ways 127 128 Life is not what it seems 129 And lately, niether am I 130 How do I predict what else will happen 131 Or do I want to know 132 Now and again it occurs to me 133 That part of me has gone forever 134 But then again I realize 135 That I'm better now than before 136 137 I guess I just had to learn the different 138 139 what it was. Justin Klein 140 ***********************The end for now. Miriam's licking people.************ 141 142 143 Remember, Mudgard loves you. Please be patient. It cant help itself 144 But dont touch it. You dont know where its been 145 146 My last Smarta*s comment for the day. I promise. Justin Klein 008=Usr:7 Leonard Erickson 10/07/87 19:52 Msg:653 Call:4267 Lines:5 147 Unfortunately, some irreplaceable chemicals (such as the HF I mentioned before) 148 are not recycleable as they are consumed by the process. That's why the typical 149 legislative solution never works. There *isn't* a simple general rule to apply 150 as every case is different. 151 ______________________________Leonard__________________________________________ 009=Usr:21 10/07/87 20:16 Msg:654 Call:4268 Lines:1 152 010=Usr:174 10/08/87 10:05 Msg:655 Call:4289 Lines:18 153 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 154 LEONARD- you really enjoy giving me a hardtime, don't you? Since it's rather 155 obvious that your particular type of industry is not causing problems, and 156 that what you're doing cannot be done in any other way, the laws would not 157 apply as much to you as it would to the mill in St Helens. Make sense? Don't 158 worry...noone's trying to kill industry, or discourage industry from comming 159 to Oregon. I know that every case is different, and so do the people who 160 are drafting the Toxics Use Reduction Act. That's why it's being built to work 161 with companies individually, to find out what works best in their particular 162 case. Lighten up, will ya? 163 ********************** 164 And I was not licking people--I told Justin that I'd better not lick him, 165 becaue I've got the creepin' crud. Later, he made a crude remark, and I said 166 that I WOULD lick him. The only thing I licked was A.I.R. and that's most 167 likely where I got this dratted bug. From a previous licking. Acttually, it 168 was just a peck, but i guess that's enough. Zephyrus, you ought to be ashamed 169 of your self, giving a sweet deity like me the flu. 170 I promise, I'm not licking the terminal, or the keyboard, or the modem. 011=Usr:170 10/08/87 13:07 Msg:656 Call:4292 Lines:19 171 /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 172 Well, well, well...the old Inn is alive and kicking as usual, and my, 173 aren't the debates lively this season! I love it - but I have to stop and 174 think every once in a while, and I can't read at 300 baud and think ath the 175 same time. Oh, well... 176 Mudgard, indeed...let's kick this out to the populace and see if anyone, 177 well, ... We need a name for a house. At the moment the residents include 178 myself, the Muse, a Blackwing, A.I.R., a certain Flying Dutchman, and 11 cats. 179 (Leave it to VanderVecken to always have some cats around...) The suggested 180 names have been Bedlam and the Wasteland (both rejected by the entire populace) 181 ,Midgard (Mudguard? Forget it.),Metropolis, And Beta Fi Delta (if anyone makes 182 Beta Infidelta jokes they'll get kicked - or I'll send the Muse to lick their 183 nose!). We want to give the place a name, but we have found that to name a 184 thing is to give it a label that it will live up to - hence the rejection of 185 the first two names. If you have any hints, suggestions, heckling, or ob- 186 noxious comments, just let us know... 187 /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/Luingil\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\(they'rehere..)/\/\/\/\/\/\ 188 189 i'm still not licking anything. i'm such a good little muse... 012=Usr:11 10/08/87 13:37 Msg:657 Call:4294 Lines:3 190 Then aMUSE us with a song, a poet, a sonnet of deep emotional binding, the 191 likes of which mortal man has not seen, nay not experienced in many moons. 192 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 013=Usr:159 10/08/87 17:11 Msg:658 Call:4299 Lines:18 193 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 194 Oh my, variance land! I thought a law had to apply to everyone equally to be 195 fair, a waste reduction act would be law for the Silicon Chips as well as 196 the icky Paper Mill. Anyway, I was talking about a FEDERAL law, not a 197 STATE law. Industry cannot move to 'another state' if the law is federal, 198 although it could go overseas, in which case hopefully it would 199 move into the southern hemisphere. It seems to me that a toxic waste act, 200 like the one described, is too specific to be useful, except in the area of 201 generation of an incredible number of variances. 202 When are we going to get space manufacturing? If those nasty chemicals 203 were shot off toward the sun, or maybe mercury, during manufacture, then we 204 would all breathe easier down here. It is a shame that 1/10th of the effort 205 spent on pollution control is not spent on the space program, we might then 206 be alot more 'advanced' then we are now. 207 I want to know when those gobbelers at NASA are going to get off their 208 butts and stop trying to study the science of blame placing. I want some 209 more space shuttle runs! 210 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++000001TED+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 014=Usr:173 10/08/87 18:47 Msg:659 Call:4301 Lines:7 211 -=-=-=- 212 Here! Here! Space! The final frontier! 213@ 214@ 215 L.B. \__/ 216 oo 217 -=-=-=- 015=Usr:119 10/09/87 01:08 Msg:660 Call:4312 Lines:43 218 <____>----- <--- I don't know what that thing does, but it's chasing ME! 219@And so, VanderVecken staggered back into the Inn. "I should haave known that 220 And so, VanderVecken staggered into the Inn once again. "I should have known 221 better than to follow that redhead," he muttered to himself as he stepped over 222@the sleeping alien next to the bar. One vae 223 the sleeping alien next to the bar. "One very spiked coffee, please!," he 224 called to the bartender. Next question: What was the sleeping alien on the 225 floor? *Who* was the sleeping alien on the floor? And how in ghod's name 226 was he sleeping during happy hour (1 - 2 am) at the Backwater Inn ?! 227 Admittedly, some creatures had some amazingly talents for ignoring the usual 228 regulars, (for example, deafness helps...a little...), but few could sleep 229 even through this ruckus ... except of course for those who were already 230 passed out, and although this fellow was quite green around the gills, he 231 smelled sober... Or at least there was enoughbrine in the air to make it a 232 moot point. Hmmmm, definitely puzzling... 233 After finishing his turkey sandwich (a house deluxe, complete without 234 anchovies, and his first solid meal in... er... um... you get the idea!), he 235@ 236@ 237 looked down and noticed one tentacle sliding across the floor. Kicking the 238 slime rat away from the hapless sleeper, he reached down to move the fellow. 239 "C'mon, this is no place for a SOBER sleeper!," he dragged the still 240 unidentifiable sleeper to a well-lit corner (where's a dark corner when you 241 need one? Whatever happened to artistic license? Sheesh!). Shortly 242 thereafter (three short beers later, really), a short man walked up to the 243 table. "I'll offer you 4300 credits for that carcass," the vermillion-suited 244 man said. "I'm afraid he's not dead," VanderVecken replied. "More's the 245 pity... Could you perhaps fix this for me???," the man asked, slicking back 246 his well-greased hair. "Sorry, not my style. Barkeep! One Lox and Bagel 247 over here, please!" At this point, the Peter Lorre lookalike slung off, 248 only to disappear into the crowd. Damn, I'd wanted to put a tracer on him. 249 Oh well, you have a good idea and the author writes it out! "Did I here 250 something about a *Bagel*???," the now bright-eyed alien cried. "No, that 251 was just... a... distraction... How did you do that?," VanderVecken asked in 252 response to the Bagel and Cream Cheese which had appeared in the middle of 253 the table. 254 "It's all a matter of probability... I just picked the most likely the 255 universe to wake up in. You got lucky, and I was hungry. Would you please 256 pass the mustard?" 257 "What must... oh." 258 "Yes, that mustard. Thank you." 259 "Perhaps you should explain at length," VanderVecken prompted. 260 !EM gnisahc s`ti tub, seod gniht siht tahw wonk t`nod I ---> ----<___> 016=Usr:7 Leonard Erickson 10/10/87 00:12 Msg:661 Call:4336 Lines:5 261 VanderVecken: 262 please contact: 263 /agora 264 leonard@-bucket 265 \qiclab 017=Usr:183 10/10/87 01:00 Msg:662 Call:4338 Lines:3 266 *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* 267 And as the great yawning void began to open, so she entered the Gemworld. 268 *=*=*=*=Amethyst*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* 018=Usr:159 10/10/87 11:06 Msg:663 Call:4340 Lines:1 269 WHO CARES 019=Usr:174 10/10/87 11:57 Msg:664 Call:4342 Lines:37 270 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ha,ha,my place now!^^^^^^ 271 Leonard--Perhaps you misunderstood--The Toxics Use Reduction Act is a state 272 bill, not federal...(WHAT??!!?!You mean...but...ah,hell...NOW YOU TELL ME!!) 273 274 And if an industry is not breaking a law,even though it hasn't been put 275 on the books yet, and which,when passed, will be designed so as not to 276 penalize companies for using the only thing that does the job,then they won;t 277 be punished, will they. I knew there was some miscomunication going on here! 278@.............................. 279 ###################and now to aMUSE with a vew lines########################### 280 281 There she weaves by night and day 282 a magic web of colors gay, 283 She has heard a whisper say 284 A curse is on her if she stay 285@ 286 to look down on Camelot. 287 She knows not what the curse may be 288@ 289 and so she weaveth steadily, 290 And little other care hath she, 291 The Lady of Shallot. 292 293 But in her web she still delights 294 To weave the mirrors magic sights 295 For often through the silent nights, 296 a funeral, with plumes and lights 297 And music went to Camelot. 298 Or when the moon was overhead 299 Came two young lovers, lately wed. 300 "I am half sick of shadows," said 301 The Lady of Shallot. 302 Tennyson 303 ############################ah,isn't that wonderful?########################### 304 now, I'm going to go try and convince the Blackwing to take my to the ballet. 305 A girl has to have SOME fun, after all! love and tapeworms! 306 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 020=Usr:7 Leonard Erickson 10/10/87 15:30 Msg:665 Call:4343 Lines:46 307 Muse: I didn't make the comments about Federal vs State regulations. 308 And sorry, but from earlier msgs, "toxic chemicals will be taxed so as to 309 discourage their use". This *is* penalizing industry as it will be an added 310 cost that has no relation whatsoever to their discharges (if any) of toxic 311 wastes. In fact, such a policy will encourage using the minumum legal amount of 312 treatment on wastes so as to cut costs. (as I pointed out, this is likely 313 cheaper than redesigning the process). 314 Any proper approach must penalize on emmissions/discharges not on 315 feedstocks. In some industries the toxic feedstocks are converted into product 316 (which may or may not be toxic) and non-toxic wastes. In others, non-toxic 317 feedstock results in high-toxic wastes. 318 As a more down-to-earth example, if your goal is to reduce the pollutants 319 emitted by autos, which will work better: imposing a maximum emission level 320 or taxing gasoline "to encourage reduced use". 321 Many people already re-tune their cars to increase gas mileage as soon 322 as possible after going thru DEQ. They don't care that it raises emissions, 323 the are trying to save on gasoline costs. 324 The only way to be sure that a chemical quits being used is to outlaw it. 325 And in fact in one of the previous messages, I thought you said that the 326 eventual goal was to do just that! 327 I just went back and re-read drive B. Your postings of stuff from the 328 new law includes such phrases as "mandatory reduction in use of toxics", 329 "Eventual elimination" (regarding cancer-causing or birth defect causing 330 chemicals), and then there's one I'd missed "citizens and workers will have a 331 right to know how toxics are used and plans for reduction". 332 Why do I object to the last? Because it would require disclosure of trade 333 secrets. Trade secrets are (unfortunately) often the only way to keep the 334 competition from stealing your process. Patents are regularly overturned when 335 challenged in court, and some countries don't allow patenting of some kinds of 336 processes. (Example: the USgoverment buys most drugs from Italian companies 337 which are lowest bidders. The are the lowest bidders because Italy dsoesn't 338 allow patenting drugs, thus they just obtain copies of all US drug patents and 339 start producing the drugs. *They* don't have to pay off the research.) 340 If you are really concerned with toxic wastes, quit trying to mess with 341 the input end of things when what you are worried about is the output. 342 Especially when the very wording of the law shows invalid assumptions. (ie that 343 any given toxic chemical's use *can* be eliminated). 344 And just what are the defintions being used for "cancer-causing" & 345 "causes birth defects". Sugar is more toxic in those senses than are the 346 artificial sweeteners (fact: sugar causes cancer in something like 1/1000 the 347 dose that cyclamates do. But sugar is "natural" so it doesn't fall under the 348 same regulations) 349 I'd feel a lot better about this if the laws didn't make distinctions 350 between "chemicals" and "natural products". Then the laws would *have* to be 351 more reasonable. 352 ______________________________Leonard__________________________________________ 021=Usr:130 10/10/87 17:28 Msg:666 Call:4345 Lines:32 353 354 It's been so long. I begin to think that it is over and 355 forgotten, and then I read something, see or hear something that 356 reminds me of you, and the emotions come flooding back. I find 357 myself staining my pillow with tears again. 358 Why can't I let it go? I still cling to the hope that you will 359 return. I know that you no longer care about me and will never let 360 me into your life again. And yet I still am unable to let go. 361 You were everything to me. You made my life worth living. 362 I cherished each moment spent with you I never wanted them to end. 363 It would not be a lie to say that they were among the happiest times 364 of my life. 365 I like to think that I understand why you left, but I don't 366 really. When it comes to you I am unable to think clearly. You were 367 a friend to me. You were the love of my life. I could talk to you. 368 I could open up to you and speak my deepest and innermost thoughts. 369 But you were never able to accept me. 370 I knew that it would end the way it did, yet I never wanted to 371 beleive it. I still don't want to believe it. I am unable to accept 372 that you are gone, and yet you are. Where are you now? Do you ever 373 think of me? Have you forgotten me? Am I just an unpleasent part of 374 your past that you have put behind you? 375 The only thing I ever wanted from you was your love in return, 376 but of course that was the one thing you could never give me. 377 I would have done anything to hear those three words "I love you". 378 And of course that was why you left, because I did. 379 In my muddled thinking I did not see that I was hurting you. 380 There was so little that you would let me do that I over-did 381 everything that you did let me do. I wanted to please you, I wanted 382 to gain your favour. I wanted you to care for me as I cared for you. 383 I wanted to be your friend. 384 022=Usr:54 10/12/87 02:20 Msg:667 Call:4368 Lines:2 385 Chris: Call BP for important info (661-xxxx). The Black Knight 386 ---------------------------------------------------------------- 023=Usr:174 10/12/87 09:04 Msg:668 Call:4371 Lines:25 387 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 388 389 LEONARD--As hs been previously mentioned, "the law" has yet to be completed, 390 much less ratified. As of yet, the Toxics Use Reduction act is still just 391 a theory. With minds like yours running aout it will stay just a theory. 392 Attempts o controll emmissions have been made, and have failed. Provisions 393 have been made to clean up the messes left by careless, or uninformed 394 industries. the whole idea is to find some other method that will work just 395 as well, and some cases better, so that emmissions and messes will no longer 396 be a problem. Obviously, it doesn't matter to you that we've been shitting 397 in our own nest for too long. Or maybe you don't mind the stench...but in 398 the name of the gods, stop making it so bloody difficult for those of us who 399 do give a damn. 400 ************************************** 401 Any ideas for the new house name ? 402 ************************************** 403 WANTED--Loving home for adorable kittens. Warning--this will be checked- 404 no woking the cat allowed. make reply to muse 405 ************************************** 406 Genius ex-waitress looking for full time work. Am not cut for activism--my 407 feet get too tired. Areas of interest/experience: library, lab prep, antiques, 408 theater--on and off stage, some clerical, child care--ages birth-12yrs. 409 passable artist,musician. If you have any ideas, openings, and need someone 410 quick, clever, and a hell of a lot of fun, give me a call. I learn fast. 411 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 024=Usr:4 Milchar 10/12/87 13:19 Msg:669 Call:4377 Lines:1 412 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Grannlurk %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% 025=Usr:159 10/12/87 16:37 Msg:670 Call:4381 Lines:49 413 TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS TOXINS 414 Well folks, I see the Great Toxin Debate rages on. 415 MUSE- I don't think that Leonard is trying to block passage of your law, 416 so phrases like 'Shitting in our nest' just tend to get people emotional. He is 417 raising some valid points- such as emission control. 418 The analogy between auto emissions and industry emissions is flawed, 419 autos and device polluters unlike any other, just because they are mobile. 420 It is not all that easy for industry to move around- compared to a car! 421 So, attempts to block emissions on cars have to be different than industry, 422 and so far emission control on autos has failed, as it should. 423 Industry emission control, on the other hand, is alive and very sucessful, 424 in the areas where it has been implemented. Please don't knock it as not 425 working, there is an entire industry that does nothing but make money 426 by manufacturing pollution control equipment. I think they would vigorously 427 dispute your claim that emission control does not work. 428 429 The auto pollution game. 430 Cars today represent a significant source of pollution, in some areas 431 (such as L.A.)the major. Yet, the entire area of auto emissions is almost 432 a complete failure. 433 This is due to one reason- attempts to restrict auto emissions have 434 sacrificed performance in almost all cases. 435 People are real funny about cars- they will tell you anything but when 436 observed with a car they always prefer the more powerful one-if all factors 437 are otherwise equal. Unfortunatly for pollution control advocates this is 438 bad news. More auto power means a bigger engine, or more efficient one. 439 The small block V8 is a great example- revise the intake and exhaust air 440 streams and reset the timing and you get great power, at a cost in lots of 441 fuel. Turbocharge or supercharge it,(thus making it more efficient) and 442 you also get more power. However when done, which method is used and 443 prefered? The cheapest one! That means tuning! And that costs gas! 444 The fact is that you will get more power output out of an engine per gallon 445 of fuel if you turbo it, or inject nitrous oxide, rather than retuning it. 446 Yet because of expense, people will in all cases prefer to retune. 447 Now we come to emissions. To an auto company, loading an engine down with 448 power robbing emissions control equipment (such as retuning, EGR, catalytic 449 converter, etc.) is cheaper than making it more efficient. 450 Yet look at the benefits of increasing engine efficiency. 451 Lets take a standard econo box. Datsun 210 four cylinder. rated at 452 about 80 hp. Engine efficiency is about 20 percent if we are lucky. 453 that means 80 percent of our fuel is wasted and does nothing but add to 454 pollution. 455 Take out the engine. Install a 2 cylinder rated at half the cubic volume. 456 Then, run nitrous oxide. You increase engine efficiency to 40 percent, 457 gain back your lost horsepower, and the car has the same amount of power 458 as the original four cylinder version. The only difference is you use far 459 less fuel, and what is used is a more complete burn anyway. My question is this 460 Why don't the auto companies do this! 461 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++0001TED+++++++++++++++++++++ 026=Usr:187 10/12/87 18:45 Msg:671 Call:4384 Lines:5 462 I am looking for a cheep computer with modem for a friend. Call if you have 463 one to sell at 246-xxxx. 464 465 s 466 027=Usr:7 Leonard Erickson 10/12/87 19:35 Msg:672 Call:4386 Lines:45 467 _______________________________________________________________________________ 468 Muse: I obviously "pushed one of your buttons" with my comments. And I was a 469 bit more strident than necessary. But I will *never* be in favor of a law 470 which *presumes* guilt, nor one which will apply equal punishment (higher costs 471 ) to both those companies that are reducing the *output* of toxics and those 472 that are trying their best to weasel around the existing rules. 473 As for fouling our own nest.... pleae note what the two prime causes of air 474 pollution in the williamette valley are: Autos and woodstoves. 475 Also note that most household *routinely* exceed allowable discharge rates 476 (in mg/liter) for many chemicals that they dump in the sewer. 477 Industry *does* not to be watched, we're not perfect. Some of us are even 478 honest. But industry is the easy target. The point at which there is more to 479 gain from controls on residential pollution is either close at hand or may have 480 alreadt been passed. 481 Let's see the limits applied across the board... but of course, it will never 482 happen. It's easy to get people aroused at that "horrible, evil polluting 483 company". But they *will not* believe that their woodstove could possibly 484 be a polluter. Nor will they cease to dump acids, caustics, insecticides, 485 hercides, petroleum products, etc into the sewers. 486 If costs a company millions, they don't care. If it costs them a little 487 extra effort they say that goverment is intruding on their private affairs. 488 Well, it took decades, but we got rid of outhouses in the cities. How long will 489 it take get people to quit dumping chemicals down the drain? (note that use of 490 some *drain cleaners* would have to be controlled if we had uniform standards). 491 492 By the way, in my comments about revealing process details last time, I do 493 *not* mean to imply that the public doesn't have a right to know what they 494 might be exposed to in case of an accident. And the workers certainly have 495 rights. But I'd like to be sure that what has to be available to *the public* 496 isn't going to help the competetion. (ie chemicals used, no problem. amounts, 497 no problem. *how* they are used, nope!) 498 (And of course, the workers *need* to know what they are using. In fact one of 499 the worst accidents we've had was due to a worker being *afraid* of the 500 chemicals, rather than cautious. He knew it was dangerous, but didn't know 501 *how* dangerous. So instead of lowering the carriers into the bath, he dropped 502 them in. Naturally, he got splashed....) 503 504 I wish I still had the list I saw of common household items that should not 505 be disposed of in the trash, but as toxic waste (*legally*). I do remember 506 watch, camera & calculator batteries (many use mercury or lithium). And 507 paint & thinner. And most lawn and garden chemicals.... 508 509 At least at work we've got people who monitor what gets disposed of and how. 510 _______________________________Leonard_________________________________________ 511 028=Usr:119 10/12/87 22:35 Msg:673 Call:4393 Lines:32 512 <___>---- <--- I don't know what this thing does, but it's chasing ME! 513 Greetings, Dave Blechman (er, Sven), and 0001TED (weren't there a few more 514 zeroes in that when last we spoke?? Or just getting tired of plunking on 515 the old Vic?) Long Time No Hear --- RichT, the wandering nuisance 516 Also -- Mark Forsyth, your sister sends greetings. 517 But Back To Our Story... 518 "It's all a matter of probability, you see," the stranger said, pulling a 519 wand and blackboard out of thin air. VanderVecken really wished he wouldn't do 520 that -- it was more than a bit unnerving. "Anything can happen, it's just a 521 matter of varying likelihood... Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and all that, 522 you know. I simply have some control over which things happen to me and in my 523 immediate environment. Thus, I not only have certain luxuries," said as a 524 glass of red wine appeared in his hand, "but I can travel as well." 525 "So how did you end up passed out on the floor of the Inn with strange 526 aliens offering a low price on your skin?," asked VanderVecken. 527 "Well, I have a number of bad habits... among them, I collect things -- 528 would you like this back?, " he said, holding out VanderVecken's white 529 gold ring. 530 "Yes, I would, thank you!," snapped VanderVecken, as he reclaimed his ring 531 and replaced it on his hand. 532 "Needless to say, some people take exception to my habit of collecting 533 things... and as for being passed out on the Inn's floor, I really can't 534 quite recall... I just know that I should be able to leave and most of my 535 skills don't work. As it is, I seem to be straining my abilities just to 536 maintain my appearance (over the course of their conversation, the alien 537 had been growing more and more human) and to do such petty tricks as povide 538 free meals. Have a banana?" 539 "No thank you. Hmmm.... Does this mean that the Inn could be 540 a point of universal , dimensional , and temporal 541 STABILITY !?!," VanderVecken cried, collapsing into laughter. This simply 542 couldn't be! 543 !EM gmisahc s`ti tub, seod gniht siht tahw wonk t`nod I ---> ----<___> 029=Usr:174 10/13/87 09:16 Msg:674 Call:4400 Lines:63 544 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 545 Leonard-apology accepted and returned. Yes, I know that whenever toxins are 546 mentioned, the immediate reaction is "industry" or"nucear plants". And I 547 agree that that may not be fair. But accidents like the one in St Helens 548 happen too often for comfort; especially when they don't have to happen at 549 all. I am not saying that all industry is bad, or that all pollute, but 550 there are those that do. And right now the best way to get them to stop 551 is to regulate. As you said, laws should apply to all, but only the guilty 552 will be ppunished. Just like little boys misusing their BB Guns--if they 553 can't be used properly and safely, they should be taken away. 554 0001TED--I don't know anything about cars. But it does occur to me--couldn't 555 it be that the oil companies and the car manufacturers have something going? 556 A more effecient auto will need less fuel, less often, right? And don't 557 many dealers do their own repairs,etc. Why make the car better when you're 558 making money off the inefficiency? 559 ****************************** 560 I'm picking out a thermous for you. 561 Not an ordinary thermous for you... 562 today is the MUSE's sister's BIRTHDAY!!!!! 563 Hippo birdie two ewes, 564 hippo birdie two ewes, 565 Hippo birdie deer Traci, 566 Hippo birdie two ewes. 567 ******************************************************* 568 and now to finsh my morning tea, secure in the knowledge that all oatmeal is 569 created equal. 570 ****************************************** 571 When Zig was born, the world rejoiced. After all, kings weren't born every day 572 And king he would be, one day. But for now the people had to be content with 573 him being just a baby. 574 Zig's mother, the queen, had been preparing for her new son for quite 575 some time. "Nothing but the best," she had said; and so the prince would 576 always have the finest. 577 Zig's father, the king, was already hiring the teachers his son would 578 need later in life. "A king must be educated," he had said, and so the 579 prince would have the most qualified advisors. 580 Then came that fateful day, and the queen produced a beautiful baby boy- 581 except for one thing. The brow star was missing. Everyone had brow stars, 582 even the peasants. The royal doctors assured the king and queen that it 583 would show up soon. But after two weeks, they began to worry. 584 ******************************************* 585 Fable Master--where are you??Didn't you know there was a 586 Luingil in the house? actually, there are two--one hangin on the bathroom 587 mirror and one that lives in the basement. We're planning on keeping both. 588 Are you on agora? obviously, if you're extolling the virtues of Larn. 589 Silly little muse... 590 *********************************** 591 Well, o ye fans of mine, I've given you a few lines of my own, now for some 592 from a well known BARD: 593 ...................................... 594 Our revels now are ended. These our actors, 595 As I foretold you, were all spirits, and 596 Are melted into air, into thin air; 597 And like the baseless fabric of this vision, 598 The cloud capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, 599 The solemn temples, the great globe itself, 600 Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, 601 And, like this insubstatial pageant faded, 602 Leave not a rack behind. 603 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 604 up20 605 pr 606 bot 030=Usr:159 10/13/87 13:02 Msg:675 Call:4405 Lines:22 607 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 608 Old myths take a long time to die- and the one about the oil companies 609 and car manufacturers being in league is the oldest. Actually, car companies 610 make their money the same way clothing designers make theirs: the restyle their 611 products every year and push the same old garbage out the door, in different 612 packaging, of course. 613 It is easier to make a normally aspirated internal combustion engine than 614 a turbo job, or a NOS job.(or supercharged) Internal engine tolerances can 615 be looser, iron castings instead of forgings can be used, and cheaper 616 gasketing can be used. All this despite the fact that turbocharging has been 617 employed on industrial engines for years now, and NOS technology has made 618 great strides in the last few years. (such as premixing) 619 Do you really think people will pocket the savings in gas money if cars 620 are made more efficient? Of course not! They will just drive more and end 621 up spending the same, the only difference being pollution will be reduced 622 because of cleaner burns in the engine. 623 There are a few bright spots in auto technology, though. Example, the 624 buick aluminum V6. The turbo versions of this engine currently being 625 produced employ 15 psi boost, making it the highest boosted production 626 engine currently available. Needles to say, engine efficiency is greatly 627 increased. 628 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++0000001Ted+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 031=Usr:32 10/13/87 13:55 Msg:676 Call:4406 Lines:9 629 #$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$ 630 J.D.'s Place. 631 256-xxxx. 632 300/1200 Baud 633 634 Call Today 635 or else... 636 637 #$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$# 032=Usr:61 10/13/87 17:53 Msg:677 Call:4409 Lines:8 638 .-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. 639 Over the general ruckus, Emu heard an interesting statement, then the 640@definite 'thunk' of someone falling off of their seat in laugher. "The 641 definite 'thunk' of someone falling off of their seat in laughter. 642 "The Inn as the universal point of stability?" Emu called for a very 643 stout mug to aid in thinking this through... 644 .-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.Emu 645@definite 'thunk' of someone falling off of their seat in laughter. 033=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 10/13/87 21:01 Msg:678 Call:4416 Lines:89 646 A quick comment, a turbo on a gas engine does not make it significantly 647 more efficient in the typical use an auto is placed in. The turbo is 648 seldom activated. In industrial use the turbo is a *very* worthwhile 649 addition because speeds and engine loads seldom change over the majority 650 of the engines work time. The typical auto use involves a lot of 651 stops and goes. Requiring a wide range of power requirements. That is 652 why deisel engines never became all that popular, they are picky about 653 wanting to run at a narrow power range. The higher grade fuel (gas) 654 engines allow for a much wider range of rpm/power because of the more 655 violtle fuel used. Periodically there comes the usual bit about someone 656 who develpoed a 100 mpg carb in his garage or some such thing and that 657 it was suppressed by the a. oil companies, or b. the auto industry. 658 It is a bunch of popycock. Yes, the 100 mpg carb can be built, but 659 the general public would not rush to buy it. You have to give up 660 something to get the better mileage without changing the mechanics 661 of the gas engine. In this case it is power. The trick is to super vaporize 662 the gas and mix in some other ingrendients to "water it down" (often this 663 is done litterally with water). The end result is 100 mpg and a top speed 664 of about 40 or so mph with almost no acceleration ability at all. 665 0 to 40 in 60 seconds... not exactly what people look for in cars. 666 Anyway, back to turbos and things... what makes the turbo good is 667 when it is used in situations where theengine is used at optimal 668 speed/load for most of its on time. Since the average car is not 669 used in this situation most of the time thee is little to gain from 670 it efficiency wise. It has however found a use in a different form 671 on the gas engine, and that is to add additional power at the top end 672 Turbos are worthless at the low end which is why you see superchargers 673 on dragsters and not turbos. Superchargers have their own set of problems. 674 Mainly they go like gangbusters at the low end where you want it, but 675 then they become a drag on the engine at higher speeds. They also tend 676 to require more maintaince than a turbo. But this is probably because 677 less design work has been done on superchargers compared to turbos. 678 The turbo is used on most industrial type engines because it is more 679 effiecient when running at optimal speed. primarily because of 680 little or no load on the engine. There is a problem with backpressure 681 in the exahaust. The turbo also has an added design aspect that 682 engineers like, which is a fail-safe. A turbo maxes out on how much pressure 683 it can provide. So when the wastegate fails there is less of a problem 684 in a supercharger the pressure mechanism is typically directly tied 685 to the crankshaft which means that the faster the engine turns the more 686 pressure. It is easy to gt into a run-away condition if the pressure 687 control fails. The end result... a blown engine. A turbo approachs the 688 problem more gracfully with a less likely result in a blown engine. 689 There are many things you can do to failsafe a supercharger, but the 690 end result is that any engineer will prefer to go with a design that 691 has an inheirent failsafe in the design rather than designing it in around 692 the device. Murphy's laws always have precidence. 693 Another point is that the amount of polution emitted is not a prime factor 694 in design when looking at polution control. What *is* important is the 695 quantities of the various *types* of emissions. One of the major emissions 696 from a gas engine is H2O (more commonly known as water). Another is carbon 697 monoxide. Of course there is also a rather large percenage of hydrocarbons 698 meaning unburned or partailly burned fuel. Fo obvious reasons the H2O is 699 not a significant worry. Carbon monoxide is a slightly increased worry, but 700 largely because it reduces the beathable quality of air for plants and 701 animals. What is a big worry are the other polutants. Many of the hydrocrabons 702 have a nasty habit of converting themselves to hydrogen-sulfides, more 703 commonly known as the effects of acid rain. A particularly nasty polutant 704 though is NO2 which gets worse with the more effient engine. A more efficent 705 engine runs hotter the hotter it gets, the more NO2 you end up with. 706 Oh yes, as for twi cycle engines, they can be very efficient yes, but 707 the requirements to achieve tht make them useless for auto applications. 708 To gain that minimal polution and full power you have to run it at 709 the optimal designed operational parameters. If you were to use it 710 in the typical use that an auto is pu to you would end up with ten 711 time the pollution of a standard 4 cyle engine. Not to mention 712 the ever present wider power range of the 4 stroke engine. 713 The reason the engine has remained the same in the auto for so 714 long is simply because it is the best compromise to get the job done. 715 If there was a better way I guarrente you that it would hit the 716 market. The major auto companies have tried for *decades* to find 717 a better engine. Probably the three best designs they've come up 718 with are the Wankle (mazada type rotary), the gas turbine (external 719 combustion engine) and the Sterling (a fancy engine Ford has been 720 playing with that preignites the gas for a more complete burn). 721 Unfortunately when compared to the overall range, power, and simplicity 722 (read easy to maintain, i.e. not breaking down every 5000 miles). 723 They still can't beat the old gas powered four stroke engine. 724 The Wankle came closest, but it has maintaince problems, and more 725 importantly emissions problems. The gas turbine has to run at 726 near rated rpm to really work which makes it worthless for autos, 727 but it might find a home in interstate trucking. I don't know what 728 kind of polution problems it has though I would immagine it has its 729 own share of nasties though. The Sterling never seems to get any 730 farther than Fords labs Kind of like IBM's Josephene junction 731 computer. Haul it out every 5 or 10 years to impress the press, 732 and then put it back in the hope chest. 733 But enough of my blathring, A short message turned into a long rant.... 734 ******************************** CM ********************************* 034=Usr:188 10/13/87 22:22 Msg:679 Call:4417 Lines:57 735 ===========================JUSTIN THE BLUE=================MIDGARD======== 736 737 Guess what? I was up very very late last night, flipping around on the TV 738 dial, and I found the strangest thing...... 739 Seems out of the southwestern part of the state there's these pirate broad 740 casters. They call themselves SouthWestern Oregon Network, S W O N for short. 741 And the had some very interesting ideas for programming. Thing is, these prog- 742 rams are so mind-bogglingly dumb/morose/slackjawed/STUPID that the major net- 743 works are afraid that the masses will find them more entertaining than the 744 regular fare. Which is highly likely. I mean, aside from that bastion of tue 745 evening intellectuallism(you think I mean The Macniel-Lehrer hour? Hell no, I 746 meant MOONLIGHTING!!!!) the regular stuff is pretty bland by comparison. 747 They like to think theyre clever. But when I busted through the network jam- 748 minJim Bosley over at KATU had the watch that night, so it fiqures) They 749 proudly said that they were broadcasting from "beautiful Atlantis, where the 750 statue of the city's Mayor stands proudly at the northern entrance to town", 751 I recognized the oblique reference to the town of Grass Pants ("It aint 752 climate"). 753 Those in the know, of course know that Grants Pass is the spiritual capital of 754 southwestern Oregon. The legislative capitol alternates between Medford and 755 Roseburg, with a leap year stop in Jacksonville to keep the Valley people 756 confused. Eastsiders just sit back and laugh. But I digress. 757 Anyway, heres what some casual viewing brought-at least until the network 758 ECM reasserted itself....... 759 760 19.5 h-NATURE CALL OF THE NORTHWEST 761 (subtitled Yes, that bear DOES s**t in the woods) 762 A nature documentary. Graphic scenes of natural wonders 763 doing natural things. Parental guidance suggested:children 764 are asked to discuss material before allowing parent to 765 view. 766 20.5 h-THE EVENING MOVIE 767 "Plan 9 from Outer Space". Along with The Omega Man 768 and Soldering For Fun And Profit this is the limit 769 of the video vault at SWON. They hope to get some neat 770 home movies from the station manager soon for use as 771 fillers. Still the budget is rather thin.... 772 22.5 h-LATE NEWS 773 Very very short. What kind of things would happen in a town 774 with a name like Grants Pass. 775 And what did Grant pass anyway? 776 22.6 h-ENTERTAINMENT TONITE 777 Watching bread rise. That kind of thing. 778 779 Pretty strange indeed. I'll be watching out for these people and letting 780 you know if I pick anything up worth relaying. In the meantime, if any of this 781 has gotten the goat of any former residents of Jackson or Josephine or Douglas 782 Counties, then you can easily reach me. I'll be setting up the new post office- 783 on the planet Neptune (they sent me up with V'Ger) 784 785 DONT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 786 787 Justin the Black and Blue 788 ===================Justin the Sarcastic rides again========================= 789 (Justin the Blue that is) 790 791 035=Usr:116 10/13/87 23:44 Msg:680 Call:4419 Lines:4 792 -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- 793 -+- Just looking around, as it's in my best interest... -+- 794 -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- 795 036=Usr:116 10/13/87 23:56 Msg:681 Call:4420 Lines:10 796 To the person having entered work on lines 353-385, else . 797 Might you have casually misplaced a few letters, unending 798 your latest piece, namely "BH"? 799 As you emote, I feel I look upon a hazy old mirror. I'm eagar 800 to read what it is you type each time I see your border on this 801 system ... though I tend to forget what suffering you feel each 802 time you do return within that guise. 803 Back over the years I see not everything changes. Does it? 804 -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -+- -JUGGLER- -+- -+- -+- -+- 805 037=Usr:174 10/14/87 00:16 Msg:682 Call:4421 Lines:32 806 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^the joys of ringworm^^^^^^^^^ 807 Justin--In about five minutes, you're going to be black and blue...and if it's 808 something YOU'VE caught, I'm not sure i want it to be relayed this way. But 809 I suppose this board needs its JUSTIfication, just like everything else. 810 0001TED & CM--like I said, I don't know a thing about cars. Talk to 811 Vandervecken--He was breathing down my neck, champing at the bit while I 812 read the entries. Kitty wants to play computr, too. Richt, why must you have 813 so many cats???heh heh... 814 ******************yes, it's one more break into the classics******************* 815 How do I love thee? Let me count the ways. 816 I love thee with the depth and bredth and height 817 My soul can reach when feeling out of sight 818 For the ends of being and Ideal Grace. 819 I love thee to the level of every day's 820 Most quiet need, by sun and candlelight. 821 I love thee freely, as men strive for Right; 822 I love thee purely, as they turn from Praise. 823 I love thee with the passion put to use 824 In my old griefs, and with my childhood's faith. 825 I love thee with a love I seem to loose 826 With my lost saints, -I love thee with the breath, 827 Smiles, tears, of all my life! -and, if God choose, 828 I shall but love thee better after death. 829 830 -Elizabeth Barrett Browning 831 **************she too was a muse*********************************************** 832 gotta go now. VanderVecken wants on.............ciao bello 833 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE 834 ack!!!!!!!!!!$MNU%T$#ERRichard!! Stop that!! &(^&$%*)LLLLLLLLLL Quit!!!!!! 835 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THE MUSE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 836@ 837@ 038=Usr:159 10/14/87 10:40 Msg:683 Call:4428 Lines:33 838 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 839 One difference between superchargers and turbos- a turbo is an expotential 840 output device and a supercharger is a linear. If you turn the input shaft on 841 a supercharger twice as fast you get twice as much air output. Simple, right? 842 However, turn the input shaft of a turbine twice as fast and you get 4 times 843 the output. (in volume) Also, turbos can blow up engines too. 844 Anyway, my discussion above was incomplete. I said nothing about gear 845 ratios. In the fifties I understand that Chrysler came out with a device 846 they called the 'variable transmission.' Simply, this was an automatic 847 transmission designed to have an infinite number of gears. Instaed of shifting 848 from first through third you moved a lever that decreased the gear ratio 849 from a high to a one to one ratio. I understand that current production 850 turbos are not used continously. However, if an engine was designed to run 851 at a constant rpm and the GEAR ratio was varied, through an infinite clutch, 852 torque multiplier, or some such, the acceleration felt would be the same. 853 Another possibility is engine mechanical force being converted to electricity, 854 then re-converted to mechanical force at independent drive motors. Or, 855 mechanical force converted to fluid pressure then used. 856 also, the 100 MPG carb has been built. It is on a BIKE. Motorcycles get far 857 better gas mileage than cars, yet how many people are willing to sacrifice 858 their stereo tape player, BABY ON BOARD dangler, foglights and knobbie 859 tires to ride a fuel efficient motorcycle. Just look at the peole driving 860 around in their 1 ton pickem up trucks with a spare tire (oversize) bouncing 861 around in the bed and the tailgate up to see how many care about fuel 862 conservation. (besides those trucks are UGLY to boot) 863 One last word about water injection. HOLLEY carbs is currently offering 864 a water injection kit. Why? Because by injecting water you can cool the 865 combustion chamber, thereby slowing the burn down. Great for pollution 866 you say but crummy for power? The secret is to tremendously advance the 867 ignition timing. The cooler chamber will not detonate (Ping) and you can 868 run crummy octane gas and get great power output. Water injection is 869 definitly not dead! 870 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++000000001TED++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 039=Usr:188 10/14/87 16:39 Msg:684 Call:4434 Lines:31 871 ============================Justin the Blue================================ 872 Vorpal Bunnies need oil too...... 873 874 I sit and think about it 875 There is no doubt about it 876 The more I do without it 877 The less I grow 878 879 Now it's obvious to me 880 That the things in life I see 881 That now follow me 882 Were natural 883 884 So take a look and see 885 And say occasionally 886 What you can plainly see 887 Is wrong 888 889 Your light is whats made me 890 A thing thats good to see 891 And where I want to be 892 Is here always. 893 894 You know who you are. Thanks, Justin the Blue 895 896 No. No silly stuff just now. Not in the mood. Sorry. 897 ===========================Justin the moody Blue=============================== 898 (direct from the fabulous Midgard room overlooking good taste completely.) 899 ================================Justin the Blue================================ 900 901 040=Usr:119 10/14/87 18:01 Msg:685 Call:4435 Lines:35 902 <___>--- --- I don't know what this thing does, but it's chasing ME! 903 Slowly regaining his composure, and his chair, VanderVecken took several 904 long sips of his drink. "So you seem toe stuck here... At least your 905 materialization tricks don' seem to work. Is that it?" 906 "Essentially yes. I can't quite imagine why... Perhaps, as you said, some 907 kind of stability locus or some such..." 908 "Hogwash! The n is quite a number of things, but universal stability is only 909 occasionally one of them! Hmmm... I don't suppose you've tried egss by the 910 normal routes?" 911 "What normal rou -- Um, do you think we could move to a less lit corner or 912 something?, " the now quite human looking alien requested, looking rather 913 apprehensively at two men who hadjust walked in the BabeGate. 914 "Letme guess -- more people who dislike your 'bad habits'? C'mon, " 915 VanderVecken replied with a heavy sigh, dragging the hapless alien into a 916 more secluded corner. 917 "Actually no; They're just some old friends I'd rather not see right now..." 918 "Alright. Doou have any particular destination in mind?" 919 "No, just out of here. To many old aquaintances seem to frequent the place..." 920 "Actually, this is the first time I've seen you or any of your friends at all; 921 admittedly I haven't been around for a while, however, I have this distinct 922 susion that it's *yr* presence which is doing it." 923 "Could we just get out of he? Please? I'll get you an Irish Coffee on the 924 way o." 925 "Hmm. You may have som redeeming qualities after all. Come Along." At this, 926 VanderVecken headed forthe nearest exit -- in this prticular instance, the 927 Gate to the Bazaar. Yes, the Baar. Someone had once suggested that the 928 name of that great shopping center was genereally misspelled, but it was still 929 the most efficient way to find *anything*. 930 As they passed through the gate, the little alien shimmered faintly blue. 931 VanderVeckewould have considered this worthy of comment, however his attention 932 was preoccupied by the sights of the Bazaar. Nor did he notice that the Peter 933 Lorre lookalike was again following them... 934 "Ah, the si of the Bazaar... It's been far to long since I've been 935 here... Come, let's go get a drink..." 936 !EM gnisahc s`ti tub ,seod siht tahw wonk t`nod I ---> ----<___> 041=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 10/14/87 20:11 Msg:686 Call:4439 Lines:52 937 ************************************************************************** 938 Yes turbo's have an exponential output -- for a while. Then they start 939 to max out. That is one of the important factors in designing and 940 matching a turbo to an engine. You want the turbin small and light 941 for fast response, but at the same time it has to be big enough to 942 handle the maximum demand from the engine. Usually there is a 943 compromise used in order to gain low end power They set it so that 944 it has a little too much boost at the high end and then use a waste 945 gate to "waste" the extra pressure around the turbine (or on a race 946 car where noise and polution aren't a problem often directly into 947 the air). The greater power at the low end is obtained at a slight 948 increase in the turbo lag (accellerator response). That is the main 949 advantage that the super charger has, you step on the gas and you 950 have smooth acceleration, just like without a 'charger', but with 951 more power. 952 The reason the Turbo maxes out is backpressure in the exhaust. You 953 begin to run into limits in air movement just like you do in mechanical 954 movement of valves. 955 Another type of 'charger' that you don't hear much of but may now that 956 electronics has come to a point to be able to effectively deal with it 957 is the electronic compressor. This works like the turbo, but rather 958 than running off exhaust gas it runs off of electricity. This allows 959 the ability to adjust the carb air pressure at low rpm which is a 960 problem in the turbo, and removes the mechanical unloading requirements 961 of the supercharger at high rpms. And the prssure can be adjusted by demand 962 rather than by the limitatons of the engine installation. 963 It's possible that this type of charger may get used more because of 964 this. It also has the distinct advantage of removing on of the prime 965 causes of turbo failure, which is bearing failure caused by the 966 trubine having to spin at 50,000 to 100,000 rpm in an air stream 967 meassured in thousands of degrees of heat. It's amazing that they 968 can get them to run at all in an auto, let alone for 30,000 to 40,000 969 miles with no problems. With an electronic charger you don't have 970 to worry about the exhaust gases, it is all done at the carb. And 971 you have the added advantage of not passing the exahust heat to 972 the carb intake. 973 Fixed rpm engines driving generators.... yes, that would be more 974 efficient, you could run the engine at optimum efficiency, reduce 975 polution significantly, and all of that. It is also much more 976 complicated and thus more expensive and will break down much more 977 often. There are quite a few of them around though, people keep 978 trying to find a way to make it work becuase it has a lot to offer. 979 Another good appraoch that won't cost you very much, won't change 980 the power output of your car, AND is much less polluting is to 981 switch over to propane. The problem? How many propane pumps do 982 you see around? The same goes for any other fuel. Hydrogen would 983 be an *excellent* fuel, it's major waste product is water, and 984 given that most of the earths surface is covered with hydrogen in the 985 form of H2O (wich is where we get the stuff from) there is a lot 986 more of it than oil. So If I had to say what we should use for fuel, 987 I'd pick hydrogen. 988 **************************** CM ************************************* 042=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 10/14/87 22:17 Msg:687 Call:4440 Lines:6 989 The stats-- 990 177 users total 991 73 active (called more than once) 992 20 very active (called within the last four weeks) 993@ of the 20, 5 are known duplicates, which means that 5 more 994@ arfe also probably duplicates, leaving 10 true active users.